Curse

Iñaki · Sep 13, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Before I begin:

- These ideas are meant to promote active play among the Ritualist, which is the way Guild Wars was meant to be played in the first place.

- Defensive Spirits, mainly Shelter, Displacement, etc, are the type of skills that promote passive play, and thats the reason why they were nerfed to oblivion. This ideas are meant to fix this issue, bring balance into the PvP Ritualist, and make them more useful in PvE.

- If you are posting, I always welcome any flaming/praising, but please always try to add a bit more into the ideas and provide your reasons why.

Special Thanks to:
Calen The Civl
frojack
Aethon

Who all contributed greatly in the original thread by Calen The Civl.

Featured Changes

(Current) Spawning Power: For each rank of Spawning Power you have, creatures you create (or animate) have 4% more Health, and weapon Spells you cast last 2% longer. Some Ritualist skills, especially those related to Spirit creatures, become more effective with higher Spawning Power.

(Change) Spawning Power: For every 3 ranks of Spawning Power you have, creatures you create (or animate) have an additional level. For each rank of Spawning Power creatures you create (or animate) have 2% more health and weapon spells you cast last 2% longer.

Additional possible changes to include Item Spells:

- For every 3 ranks in Spawning Power, whenever you are holding an item you increase your Health by 5 and Energy by 2, and have a 5% chance to halve skill recharge of spells.

What this changes means is that for Spirits, at 10 SP they have an additional 3 levels, and 20% more health, and at rank 12/13 an additional 4 levels with 24/26% additional health. The health gain compared to the previous 4% is practically the same, but additional armor is added into the spirits to make them more sustainable to damage.

Edit (15/09/07):

What everyone has agreed as of yet:

- The Binding Rituals concept is fine as it is. What it needs is basically a balance in Casting/Recharge times and possibly cost. The ideal decrease in casting times could be 2 seconds for 3 second spirits, and 4 or possibly 3 seconds for 5 second spirits.

- Reducing the Area of Effect of spirits is a must if balancing is to be successful. The ideal range would be within earshot.

- And most important: No one wants a revival of the old siting-across-map-Spirit-Spamming-Ritual-Lord days. This changes are also meant to prevent that from happening.

- It was suggested that a change into the functionality of the main defensive spirits should be implemented, mainly for Shelter and Displacement.

Calen The Civl added by suggesting that the Shelter and Displacement, or possibly Union, be changed into weapon spells.

Quote:

Weapon of Shelter(10e, 1c, 12r): Weapon Spell. For 5-8 seconds target ally cannot lose more than 10% maximum health from a single attack.

Weapon of Displacement(10e, 1s, 12r) Weapon Spell. For 5-8 seconds target ally has a 50% chance to block incoming attacks.

Weapon of Union(10e, 2s, 20r) Weapon Spell. For 8-12 seconds, when target ally receives damage half that damage is directed to you and is reduce by 3-10 points.

This change needs some insight and opinions.

SP = Spawning Power

Ritual Lord(10e,30r)[Elite]:Skill. For 30 seconds, your Rituals cast 15...40...50% faster.

Weapon of Quickening(5e/2c/5r):Weapon Spell. For 5...21...25 seconds, target ally has a Weapon of Quickening, and Spells and Binding Rituals cast 33% faster.

Binding Rituals Modification:

Shelter(10e,3c/4c,30r): Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8 Spirit. All non-Spirit allies within earshot of this Spirit gain +15 armor while activating skills. If an ally's skill is interrupted, that ally gains 1...8 energy. This Spirit dies after 8...18...20 seconds.

At 15 Communing: The Spirit has lvl 8 and lasts for 20 sec

10 Spawning Power: The Spirit has lvl 11 (8+3)
Health = 300 + (300*0.2) = 360
Armor = 69

13 SP: lvl (8+4) 12
Health = 320 + (320*0.26)= 403
Armor = 75

Thanks to Aethon for this version of Shelter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aethon

I balanced my version of Shelter as such because I didn't want it to be stronger-than or stack too well with Ward Against Harm {E} and similar skills. It's got pros and cons that I think balance it out.

Union(10e,2c,25r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. Whenever any Non-spirit ally within earshot of the spirit take damage, that damage is reduced by 15 and the spirit takes 15 damage. This Spirit dies after 5...18...20 seconds.

At 15 Communing: lvl 8, 20 sec,

10SP: lvl (8+3) 11
Health = 360
Armor = 69

13SP: lvl (8+4) 12
Health = 403
Armor = 75

Allows for 24 hits possible, at 10 SP; and allows for 27 hits possible, at 13 SP.

Displacement(10e,2c,30r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. All non-Spirit allies within earshot of the spirit have a 75 % chance to block incoming attacks. Every time an attack is blocked in this way, this spirit takes 20 damage. This Spirit dies after 5...13...15 seconds.

At 15 Communing: lvl 8, 15 sec, 4 allies.

10SP: lvl 11
360 Health
69 Armor

13SP: lvl 12
403 Health
75 Armor

Restoration(10e,4c,20r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. When this spirit dies, all allies in the area of the spirit are resurrected with 15...41...50% Health and 10...22...25% Energy. This Spirit dies after 20 seconds.

Preservation(5e,2c,20r)[Elite]: Create a level 1...8...10 Spirit. Every 2 seconds, all allies within earshot of the spirit are healed for 30...60...80 Health. This Spirit dies after 2...8...10 seconds.

Recuperation(15e,3c/4c,20r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. All allies within earshot of the spirit have +1...3...4 Health regeneration. This Spirit dies after 5...18...20 seconds.

Recovery(10e,2c,10r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. Conditions on all allies within earshot of the spirit expire 20...44...50% faster. This Spirit dies after 5...21...25 seconds.

Life(5e,2c,10r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. When this spirit dies, all allies within earshot of the spirit are healed for 1...6...7 health for each second it was alive. This Spirit dies after 10 seconds.

Rejuvenation(10e,2c,10r): Create a level 1...8...10 Spirit. That ally and 2...4...4 allies within earshot are healed for 3...9...10 health each second. This spirit looses 3...9...10 health for each party member healed this way. This spirit dies after 5...9...10 seconds.

*Winds: This spirit should be changed into a Nature Ritual. I never quite figured why Anet would make this a Binding Ritual.

The Minion Master / Minion Bomber:

This numbers correspond each to 16 Spawning power and 12 Death magic for the Ritualist and 16 Death magic for the Necro. Notice: at 16SP/12DM, Ritualist add an additional 5 levels plus an additional 32 % health, but are limited to only a max of 8 Minions.

Animate Flesh Golem(10e,3,30r):
- at 16SP/12DM it creates a level (21+5) 26 Golem with [600+(600*0.32)] 792 Health and 103 armor.
- at 16DM, it creates a level 26 Golem with 600 Health and 103 armor.

Animate Bone Horror(10e,3,5r):
- at 16SP/12DM, it creates a level (14+5) 19 Horror with 607 Health and 76 armor.
- at 16DM, it creates a level 18 Horror with 460 Health and 73 armor.

[B]Animate Bone Fiends(25e,3,5r):[B/]
- 16/12, level 19 with 607 Health and 76 armor.
- 16DM, level 18 with 440 and 72 armor.

Animate Bone Minions(15e,3,5r):
- 16/12, 2 level 15 minions with 449 Health and 61 armor.
- 16, 2 level 13 minions with 340 Health and 54 armor.

Animate Vampiric Horror(15e,3,15r):
- 16/12, level 19 with 607 Health and 76 armor.
- 16DM, level 18 with 440 Health and 72 armor.

Animate Shambling Horror(15e,3,25r):
- 16/12, level 19 with 607 Health and 76 armor.
- 16DM, level 18 with 440 Health and 72 armor.

*Jagged Horrors:
- 16/12, have level 17 with 502 Health and 69 Armor.
- 16DM, have level 15 with 380 Health and 61 armor.

Other Skills that would need to be changed:

Armor of Unfeeling

Signet of Binding should have the 30 second limit lowered, perhaps 10 seconds?

Signet of Creation, maybe same as Sig of Binding?, this would actually benefit Minion Bombers.

Summon Spirits

Draw Spirit

Oso Minar · Sep 13, 2007, 04:46 AM // 04:46

We weren't broken before. This thread, while impressive in length, is entirely pointless.

Terra Xin · Sep 13, 2007, 07:22 AM // 07:22

I had to stop at Shelter because I got confused. Could you provide a clarification for 'bound' please? It seems to be a new mechanic that you've introduced but you haven't explained how it works. Thanks.

Dahnel · Sep 13, 2007, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Ritualists are broken ? I did'nt get that memo...

street peddler · Sep 13, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

what an overly-complicated/pointless idea..

Calen The Civl · Sep 13, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Inaki's goal is to add more viability to Spawning Power. However, while some of the skill changes have potential (Shelter and the other defensive spirits are obviously broken as they are) the spirits are seeing a completely overhaul that makes them similar to minions. At first, I was fond of the idea as well; however, after consideration it would be a too large a reworking of the class's mechanics to be viable.

The idea of defensive spirits being bound to an ally (which is basically the same as casting an enchant on a player) and have the effect influence the earshot area around that ally would be a nice way to make the spirits different from protection spells. These spirits would have to remain immobile however.

The idea of Spawning Power influencing animated and summon creatures levels seems like a decent addition; however, the energy gains attached to the primary are not needed. Boon of Creation with a few energy management skills are enough to handle energy for even the current 25 energy spirits.

The current weapon spell and health influences are fine at the current 2% mark because it still encourages active vs more passive play.

Nice number crunching btw.

Iñaki · Sep 13, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Edited the original post:

Reduced the extensiveness of the thread and easiness to read.

Eliminated the binding idea.

Modified the changes in Spawning Power

Only showing protective spirits. offensive spirits should also be changed to equal the level of activeness the protective spirits have with these changes.

Clarified the ideas for which this thread was meant for

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oso Minar

We weren't broken before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahnel

Ritualists are broken ? I didn't get that memo...

I'm really sorry about this... that wasn't what i meant at all in the original post. What I meant was that Defensive Spirits, mainly Shelter, Displacement, etc, are the type of skills that promote passive play, and that's the reason why they were nerfed to oblivion. This ideas are meant to fix this issue. In no way did I mean that the Ritualist as a class was broken, it was just a misunderstanding because of my horrible english.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oso Minar

This thread, while impressive in length, is entirely pointless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by street peddler

what an overly-complicated/pointless idea..

Fixed the issues in the original post to help you understand how i view it. Try to read again and look into it. I really believe that fixing the way that binding rituals work is not pointless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calen The Civl

The idea of defensive spirits being bound to an ally (which is basically the same as casting an enchant on a player) and have the effect influence the earshot area around that ally would be a nice way to make the spirits different from protection spells. These spirits would have to remain immobile however.

Thanks for your help and ideas. I removed the binding idea, and fixed Spawning Power. Also, spirits stay immobile.

What do you guys think?

Aethon · Sep 14, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

People who come into a thread just to say the equivalent of "ur idea sux" without any kind of constructive response don't deserve a reply; if they don't happen to justify their position, you don't have to justify why you should ignore them. Are Ritualists okay as they are? Then explain why or don't waste people's time.

On the topic at hand, this is how I see it:
1. Spirits are immobile, have a long casting time, and a long recharge. They "tie down" a team's mobility and slow down the game. This is potentially just as bad as passive defenses slowing things down.
2. Passive defense spirits in their current form are weak in the name of preserving interesting gameplay. A better solution is to make spirits more active than just trashing them, hence the point of these threads.
3. Spawning Power has next to zero utility outside of Ritualist skills (Necromancer minions being the only exception). And urns get nothing from it, for whatever reason.

These are the three most prominent issues that would be nice to see rectified.

I'll start with the third point. The Spawning Power variant that Iñaki has listed seems reasonable, as it might actually make Ritualists passable minion masters; I imagine that was part of the original intent when Ritualists were designed, otherwise it would have just said Spirit health in the original description. I would really like SP to give urns a bonus, though. I've heard from some people, in-game and otherwise, that the bonuses that they provide are often not strong enough to warrant the removal of one's weapons. I dunno exactly what could be added to make them more appealing, but something. A boost to energy/health, or maybe skill recharge. I'd say make it affect Item Spell duration, but many seem to be either maintainable or not on purpose. I'd also like to hear some way of giving SP more utility outside of just Ritualist skills. I'm not sure if we're approaching this right, as it isn't very elegant to just tack on so many clauses, but then again several primaries aren't elegant, yet they seem to work.

The "binding" concept is interesting, and while I'm not sure if it is the perfect solution, I really can't think of another way to "activate" spirits. Spirits shouldn't remain super-AoE like they are, seeing as how they're very inflexible right now, and yet they should't just target one person, otherwise it's not much different than a targeted shout or weapon spell. A different idea might be to reduce the effective range of all these passive spirits to half or 3/4ths of the aggro radius, reduce duration/recharge (and casting time?), and then make available some utility to put them where they need to be. Something like altering Draw Spirit: The Spirit nearest to you shadowsteps to the location of target non-spirit foe or ally. Either separately or in addition to this, it would be interesting to cap the damage done to spirits each second, such as making attacks not do direct damage, but triggering massive DoT (which some of the other Ritualist skills may be able to slow or negate); this would effectively allow a Spirit to play a strong anti-spike role, being that they will last at least for a few seconds, although the DoT may be irreversibly strong, like minions get after a while.

I want to make it clear that I am not saying that the class isn't interesting to play - it's my main character's class - but I fail to see how a change to make Binding Rituals active could possibly remove value from the game.

Iñaki · Sep 14, 2007, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aethon

I dunno exactly what could be added to make them more appealing, but something. A boost to energy/health, or maybe skill recharge.

You´re right. Item Spells are part of what makes a Ritualist unique.

Edited op with these idea.

Quote:

A different idea might be to reduce the effective range of all these passive spirits to half or 3/4ths of the aggro radius, reduce duration/recharge (and casting time?), and then make available some utility to put them where they need to be. Something like altering Draw Spirit: The Spirit nearest to you shadowsteps to the location of target non-spirit foe or ally.

This is exactly how I see it. The only thing I don't agree on is in Draw Spirit. Instead of using another skill to place spirits, i figure casting them where they have to be is much better. And also, in addition to reducing the are of spirit AoE effect, a maximum number of allies affected is a good idea because it prevents massive damage taken. That is why Shelter reads:

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

Shelter(15e,3/4,2r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit at target ally's location for 5...12...17 seconds. That ally and 2...4...4 Non-spirit allies within earshot of the spirit cannot loose more than 10% maximum Health from a single attack or spell. Whenever this Spirit prevents damage it looses 20 health.

Thanks a lot for your help and support.

Oso Minar · Sep 14, 2007, 03:31 AM // 03:31

As it stands now, I can actually do things in PvE and PvP OTHER than just sitting around spitting spirits out. Remember the old days of Ritual Lord? Those days were TERRIBLE, and did absolutely nothing for the Ritualists. And that precicely is why people glance over us now, is because we no longer have the power of spitting spirits to our hearts' content wherever we go. And I'm perfectly happy with that. It actually lets me play the game the way I want to play it. I can be effective by not just sitting there spamming my dumb spirits all day long like y'all seem to want.

3/4 casting time? 2 second recharge? Seriously?

That's just too much, man. All we would be resorted to would be spamming those spirits, Offering of Spirit, Essence Strike, and Energetic Was Lee Sa all stinkin' day long. There is absolutely no way I want to go back to that sort of playstyle. In PvP OR in PvE.

Similarly, I think that you may be giving too much of an advantage to the spirits in terms of health loss. Granted, I think that some of the skills have a bit too much loss per hit, but you're neglecting the way that proper parties are run. While your suggestions for the added health / decreased helath loss may be okay for the RED ENGINE GO teams out there with terrible aggro management and all, a proper party would abuse the bejesus out of your suggestions. When you only have one tank getting all the aggro and bodyblocking around a corner, he's perfectly fine with only a Prot Monk or a Bonder helping him out; imagine if you could spam defensive spirits on him and make things even easier? Things would be far too easy. AND we would STILL be stuck spamming spirits all day.

As far as your talk of how Item Spells need to have something to do with Spawning Power, I honestly don't believe there's anything really wrong with the current item system. The popular ones are all pretty powerful at the moment (with a few granted exceptions, but there are dumb spells in all classes), and to lengthen the holding time would only cause problems. As it is, the ones that you can maintain have cooldowns shorter than their recharges, and the very powerful ones that require upkeep are that way for a reason. Vengeful was Khanhei farming would be even more braindead if you could hold the ashes longer, for instance. I wouldn't mind a little leeway on Destructive was Glaive, though, but that's just me. As it is, though, I think the Item Spells are okay. You give up your weapons in return for something else, it's a question of balance. While some players think it's not worth it, I say they're simply limiting their own playstyles.

------

In all though, there are a few things that I would like to see changed. I'd be a happy camper if casting times were decreased a little, from 3s/5s to 2s/4s. As it has it, we're on the ground for a long time doing nothing, while giving the other team free potshots at inturrupting us. With a casting time that's a little faster, it will both force other teams to be on their guard as well as allow PvE characters to actually get a spirit or two off during a fight (as the AI is simply mind-boggling in effectiveness).

I still grumble when I wait for Spirit Rift's 2s cast, but I can see that it's necessary for PvP changes. As it has it, there are still ways to effectively spike with a Ritualist, so I guess I can't complain too much.

Some of the spirits do seem to lose an awful lot of health (such as Displacement) during RED ENGINE GO moments, and it would be nice to just test what would happen if the spirit only lost, say, 30 or 45 health points. It might help a little.

------

All in all though, the measures you are proposing are simply over the top, and would result not only in a return to those old, dumb, sit-around-and-spam-the-spirits days of old, but eventually once folks realised just how broken the skills you're proposing are, we would just get nerfed back, potentially worse than we are right now.

Right now, I think that we're perfectly all right. In the hands of a skilled player, the Ritualist can do everything they were meant to do and more. I just don't think we're broken, that's all. I'm happy with the way our class is now. A little creativity in your builds goes a long way. I'm glad that these "nerfs" you talk about have in effect only opened up our class to experimentation and new things.

See what happens when you make me write long things? >.<

In no way do I mean to belittle anybody else in this thread. It's good to have a little bit of criticism here and there on the things that really matter, but to suggest complete overhauls like this are just too far out there, in my opinion. If we're to get anything changed, it's going to come slowly and in small increments. I would rather have ten "Oh hey, that's pretty cool" updates than one big "WOW!" followed with one big "AWW."

Iñaki · Sep 14, 2007, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Hello again everybody

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oso Minar

3/4 casting time? 2 second recharge? Seriously?

Quote:

In all though, there are a few things that I would like to see changed. I'd be a happy camper if casting times were decreased a little, from 3s/5s to 2s/4s. As it has it, we're on the ground for a long time doing nothing,

Quote:

Some of the spirits do seem to lose an awful lot of health (such as Displacement) during RED ENGINE GO moments, and it would be nice to just test what would happen if the spirit only lost, say, 30 or 45 health points. It might help a little.

This is exactly what I'm looking for in this thread. I need people from different poles to express what they feel and what should change. Just like you did.

There is something we all agree on: We would like to see some kind of change to just test things out. My point of view is that Binding Rituals were meant to be a big part of the Ritualist, including Defensive spirits.

As I understand, you don't want any of these changes because Ritualist should not be

Quote:

just sitting around spitting spirits out. Remember the old days of Ritual Lord? Those days were TERRIBLE, and did absolutely nothing for the Ritualists. And that precicely is why people glance over us now, is because we no longer have the power of spitting spirits to our hearts' content wherever we go.

I think that the reason Anet nerfed spirit spamming was not just because spirits were overpowered, but instead because it promoted passive play rather than active play. Also, spirit spamming in a more active play style would honestly not be anymore different than a monk casting enchantments on a player, only difference being that the skills have AoE effects. But in no way do I want my Ritualist to become another monk, and loose its uniqueness, or to have that same-old-dumb-sitting-across-map spirit spamming.

Had I been in charge of balancing the Rits, I would not have nerfed spirits to oblivion, but rather change the skills that allowed a Ritualist to spam (think Ritual Lord), and instead balance the spirits. Following your additions to this thread, this is what I suggest for spirits.
I will use Shelter as an example:

Shelter(15e,4s,25r): Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit.Non-Spirit allies within its range cannot lose more than 10% maximum Health from a single attack. When this Spirit prevents damage, it loses 60...45...30 Health. This Spirit lasts for 5...27...33 seconds.

Ritual Lord(10e,30r): Skill. For 30 seconds, your Rituals cast 15...40...50% faster.

Notice that the range of Shelter is "within earshot". So no sitting across maps spamming Shelter. The casting time is 4 seconds like you suggested.

But what I find more interesting is Ritual Lord instead of faster recharges, faster casting of rituals. This skill promote a bit better active play in the Spirit Spamming, with a 2 second casting time, and for Spirits who would have 2 seconds casting time, Ritual Lord lowers it to 1 second.

Like you said, it would be interesting to test things out.

I hope my English doesn't confuse you again.

Tony Malketh · Sep 14, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Just a quick post to say I like the way you have suggested changes, it will mean some small modicum of thought going into spirit placement and utility (I hope). A possible concern is where the spirits are created. Wuld they be superimposed on the ally, next to or behind them, this matters because spirits could still be attacked if created at the allies location drastically reducing their effectiveness. Or are we going to include a clause to attack a spirit? In project 1 it was suggested that only spells, not axes or swords etc. should be able to attack them as they are spirits and hence non corpreal.
Finally, I like the way you redesigning spirits even if no one else does! My only query is how you would change offensive spirits, as they tend to be more passive than resto spirits.

Calen The Civl · Sep 14, 2007, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Weapon spells are the best and most unique type of skill the ritualist has going for them. Why not simply convert the spirits into weapon spells?

Weapon of Shelter (10e, 1s, 12r) Weapon Spell. For 5-8 seconds target ally cannot lose more than 10% maximum health from a single attack

Weapon of Displacement (10e 1s 12r) Weapon Spell. For 5-8 seconds target ally has a 50% chance to block

Union works just fine as a defensive spirit but here is a possible change:

Weapon of Union (10e 2s 20r) Weapon Spell. For 8-12 seconds, when target ally receives damage half that damage is directed to you and is reduce by 3-10 points.

Obviously the numbers need to be worked on since Weapon Spells cannot be stripped. However, they also cannot be stacked either. This would at least make these skills more active and have an element that is unique to the ritualist. However, these spells could likely be exploited since they cannot be stripped. They are nothing more than monk knock offs as well.

These spirits could perhaps be changed to items spells as well. The spells would have an earshot radius around the ritualist to benefit the party:

Sheltered was Qin. (10e, 1, 30r) Hold Qin's ashes for 10-15 seconds. While you hold these ashes party members within earshot of you cannot lose more than 10% maximum health from a single attack.

This would be balanced by making the ritualist more of a target and by the earshot range. Again, numbers would have to be better adjusted.

akh · Sep 14, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calen The Civl

Weapon of Shelter (10e, 1s, 12r) Weapon Spell. For 5-8 seconds target ally cannot lose more than 10% maximum health from a single attack

prot spirit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calen The Civl

Weapon of Displacement (10e 1s 12r) Weapon Spell. For 5-8 seconds target ally has a 50% chance to block

guardian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calen The Civl

Weapon of Union (10e 2s 20r) Weapon Spell. For 8-12 seconds, when target ally receives damage half that damage is directed to you and is reduce by 3-10 points.

angelic bond

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calen The Civl

Sheltered was Qin. (10e, 1, 30r) Hold Qin's ashes for 10-15 seconds. While you hold these ashes party members within earshot of you cannot lose more than 10% maximum health from a single attack.

that's overpowered shelter

How is that unique ? Skill concept is good as it is imo. Few recharge/cost/casting time changes would be enough to make Rit better. Maybe switching skill lines of few skills, thats it.

Aethon · Sep 14, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

That's better; I prefer essays over half-sentences any day.

@Oso: I don't want the old spirit spam anymore than you do. If spirits could be made more active, I'm hoping that spirit spam, if you could still call it that, won't be nearly as boring or mindless, although I also hope that future skill changes will be made to provide more viable alternatives for Ritualists. I'd just like to focus on spirits for now because they are the most troublesome problem, I feel.

As far as Item Spells go, I'd be fine with just some minor, token effect from SP. I'm just annoyed that it seems to be the only spell category that is unique to a particular class and has no benefits from it's primary attribute at all.

@Calen: I highly doubt that they would change spirits into weapon spells, since that would require a drastic overhaul on a LOT of spells.

I think that, in general, reducing casting time/recharge/duration on all Binding Rituals would be a move in the right direction, along with a reduction in range to the healing/defensive (and maybe some of the utility) spirits to earshot. Lastly, changing the basic effects of Shelter/Union/Displacement may be in order.

Taking a shot at fixing Shelter is in style. What have I got to lose?

Shelter 15e / 2c / 30r
Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8 Spirit that lasts 8...18 seconds. All allies in earshot of this Spirit gain +15 armor while activating skills. If an ally's skill is interrupted, that ally gains 1...8 energy.

There, I tried.

Now I need feedback. I have some ideas for attribute lines and whatnot, too, but one thing at a time is best, methinks. Fixing defensive spirits is essentially the same as fixing Communing, anyways.

Iñaki · Sep 14, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Thank you everyone for your help, support and new ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calen The Civl

Weapon spells are the best and most unique type of skill the ritualist has going for them. Why not simply convert the spirits into weapon spells?

Weapon Spells really are unique to the Ritualist, and one of the more usefull and fun type of skills they have. Yet, I have to disagree with your idea to convert Spirits into Weapon Spells, simply because Binding Rituals are also a big part of the Ritualist. And in terms of the class concept, a Ritualist with such few Spirit skills and so many Weapon Spells would not really be a Ritualist.

So, as everyone agrees:

- The Binding Ritual skills concept is fine as it is. What it needs is basically a balance in Casting/Recharge times and possibly cost.

- Reducing the Area of Effect of spirits is a must if balancing is to be successful. The ideal range would be within earshot.

And last:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aethon

Lastly, changing the basic effects of Shelter/Union/Displacement may be in order.

Taking a shot at fixing Shelter is in style. What have I got to lose?

Shelter 15e / 2c / 30r
Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8 Spirit that lasts 8...18 seconds. All allies in earshot of this Spirit gain +15 armor while activating skills. If an ally's skill is interrupted, that ally gains 1...8 energy.

I read this and I think, why not?
Changing the effects of Shelter and Displacement would be a great idea and a great help for balancing sakes. Although, for your Shelter, I do not agree (aside of the energy regen) that for a 15e,2c,30r skill it is as useful as it should be. It seems underpowered in my opinion, but your idea is creative and fits in the name of the skill.

I think that adding a permanent +24 armor while the spirit lives is rather better, without the energy gain.

My shot:

Shelter(15e,2c,20r): Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. All non-Spirit allies within earshot of this Spirit gain +24 armor. This Spirit dies after 10...22...25 seconds.

I think that the within earshot is a very limiting factor in this case...I don't know.

Displacement(10e,2c,20r): Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. All non-Spirit within earshot of the Spirit have a 75% chance to block incoming attacks. This Spirit dies after 5...12...15 seconds.

Might be cool to try out, and also do you think this Displacement is overpowered? Maybe reduce blocking to 50%?

But I think that the most important thing that we have to balance are the actual skills that would allow us to spam spirits (Ritual Lord).

What i suggested is that the skills Ritual Lord and Weapon of Quickening should affect casting times, instead of recharges, of the binding rituals. This would actually promote more active rather than passive play. What do you think?

Also, I need some more insight into the Spawning Power changes, and maybe have a vote if it should include anything related to urns, and what it would be.

Again, thanks for all the help/ideas/support.

Aethon · Sep 15, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

I balanced my version of Shelter as such because I didn't want it to be stronger-than or stack too well with [skill=text]Ward Against Harm[/skill] and similar skills. It's got pros and cons that I think balance it out.

And that Displacement you posted is way too good. That can keep up 75% block 75% of the time.

It's pretty late where I am, otherwise I'd take a stab at it; it's a tricksy skill to balance in relation to other skills like [skill=text]Aegis[/skill]. Whereas [skill=text]Union[/skill] would be nearly perfect with a reduced cast, recharge, radius, and duration (and a fixed description

), I don't think [skill=text]Displacement[/skill] can really stay the way it is with the whole unconditional blocking thing going on unless we just make it feel like an Aegis or [skill=text]Ward against Melee[/skill] clone.

Ensign · Sep 15, 2007, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Your concept of balance correlates very weakly with reality, if it correlates at all.

Calen The Civl · Sep 15, 2007, 02:16 PM // 14:16

The ideas I threw onto the table don't apply to all spirits, but just those three. I know that the ideas are equivalent to various protection spells but the difference would be the inability to strip them. I do believe in a nice open brain storming session however.

Do you have any insight on these skill discussions, Ensign?

Iñaki · Sep 15, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

I fixed and updated the original thread with the new ideas and suggestions.